Trent: A Year Of Sleep Deprivation, Parenting Challenges, Financial Stress & Wild Fires... With No Community Support

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Michael Williams (00:04.161)
Welcome to DadPod. I'm Mike. And I'm Luke. We're friends here in Madison, and we both have kids. And at least for us, becoming a dad has been transformational. We talk to all sorts of dads in all sorts of situations to learn from their unique challenges, lessons, and evolutions. The goal is simple. Learn from each other to become better dads. If you dig it,

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Michael Williams (00:39.822)
With us today, we have Trent and we're diving into the theme of balancing your career with your commitment to your family. We are going to talk about where we're getting it right, where we're getting it wrong and how we've evolved in the transition from, you know, from from no kids to child to multiple children. It's a big topic.

We're gonna cover quite a bit. And as always, no one here is claiming to be an expert. We are here because we're curious, we're engaged, and we just wanna be better dads. As I said with us is Trent. I've known Trent for more than 20 years now, if you can believe that. We've, yeah, we've lived in three different cities together. And I was...

particularly interested in discussing this topic with you, Trin, for a few reasons. One, you have two daughters and a partner that is a highly engaged parent and has strongly defined views about caring for them. You are also a highly devoted partner to your partner and to your kids. And meanwhile,

for the past 10 years or whatever it's been, you've been working at startup companies that expect a high level of input and effort from you, which, you know, all of it just to say you've set yourself a really high level of difficulty to land this plane in terms of balancing your career, your role as a parent and your role as a partner. And I'm excited to dig into that with you.

Yeah, excited to be here. Definitely a lot of thoughts, a lot of scars. Great. Yeah. Before I jump in, is there anything that I missed? Any context that you would add beyond that? No, I think that that's about right. The only thing I'll add is that most of my career I've been in tech, but most of my career has actually been in talent, finding people jobs. So it's within that kind of dual context. So I kind of deal with this stuff a lot, both from an HR and talent perspective of like

Michael Williams (03:04.59)
you know, parents and non parents and like the differences of those types of folks, the types of jobs that are going to really sync with them. The changing landscape there, like work has changed like so much in the 10 years I've been in the industry. And that's always been great for parents. Someone's been awful for parents. So, yeah, lots of lots of both professional as well as personal insights. So before your first child, so pre -kids, just for context for us, where

was what was your schedule like? What was your partner schedule like? Where where were you guys before? Yeah, before the family arrived. Yeah, we both had pretty high profile jobs. I like had joined a startup that was like having a rocket ship and I was like working, you know, pretty long days and then weekends. And it didn't really feel that painful. Like there was plenty of time to still like

workout or like hang out or go to restaurants or bars or whatever. even though I was like, you know, you're putting in like, you know, huge hours, I got paid off for that. Right. Like I promoted every year. I ended up leading like a team of 80 at one point. And, and so, yeah, like there, there was like, you kind of were able to work, you're able to get your shit done. You're able to get yours. You're able to do great work and get rewarded for it. And similarly, my partner was kind of in a similar schedule where she had like a really demanding job.

You know, nonprofit service serves all these like really big tech companies. And and she was also working, you know, she had weekend stuff, whatever. And, you know, I think there's times when that was intense, but it was mostly like, hey, this works. You know, we're making good money. We're able to live like a comfortable lifestyle, like a very comfortable lifestyle. We're like going to wine country on the weekends. Like it was it was pretty like pretty awesome. So when that first child became what you when you became pregnant?

and the child is on the way. Did you discuss how your career commitments would change with your partner? Was that an active discussion or what or was that not part of what you were preparing? I would say we could have done a lot more on that front. So I think like.

Michael Williams (05:25.774)
You know, I think we learned a lot about like what we wanted to be as parents and our philosophy on parenting, like while we were pregnant. So it was kind of like we both like I think, yes, since we were married, we both like knew we wanted kids and we kind of reached out like echelon where it's like, OK, we have a lot like we have compensation, like our careers seem to be going in the right direction. I assume there's just like a lot of comfort and they seem like there's a lot of space for a kid. And I think that probably drove the decision more than it should have.

I'm just like, there's space, like, and we know you want this, so let's fill it, you know? I think like more of a fire discussion, like, what is this actually going to look like? And through that, you know, we basically kind of settled on this idea of like of co -parenting that we're going to try to figure out, like, how do we both kind of share in like the the benefits and the challenges of being actual like, you know, co -parents? And that was kind of like.

You know, we talked about and like what our kind of vision was. But obviously, like, you know, the real world kind of smacks in the face. You know, I was like, you know, leading this fast growing tech company. And and yeah, like, you know, being the pair you want to be is not always possible when you got like when you have other priorities. So, yeah, we I we didn't really talk enough about it, I think. Just to to dive into that for one second, could you maybe talk a little bit about what that maybe two part question?

How did you actually have that discussion? What is this vision? And then what was the vision and how did it end up being off from reality? Yeah. So, you know, we got pregnant. We read like a ton of books and like I think like when you get pregnant, you're like you're just like kind of reading a lot of books, right? Like you're kind of in this this pause where it's like, yeah, like things haven't changed, but like things are going to change. You know, it's like Quest, the kind of like learn a lot. And you know how like I was reading books that were like.

You know, like, should we have like a home birth or a hospital birth kind of stuff like Ina Mae Gaskin stuff? But then also stuff about like, how do you get like your six year old to read? And, you know, it was like it was kind of like parenting books from like the whole spectrum. But you're like a new parent. But like one of the things that my partner really gravitated towards was this idea of like connection parenting. And so she read a bunch of like connection parenting books, which is like and there's different like styles of connection parenting. But all of it is like, hey, if you guys set your kids up for success or you make them well adjusted individuals,

Michael Williams (07:48.75)
They have to have a firm connection to like one or more, you know, primary caregivers. And your goal in the early years, you know, in the early, like, you know, basically preschool years or preschool years is to give them that connection. Right. And doing that's like, you know, it's not trivial. Right. Like if you want to be like the primary caregiver for a kid, like you've got to be there kind of every moment.

you know, of their lives. Like they have to really look at you as a primary caregiver. You can't be working like a full time job and be a primary caregiver. And so that was like the general philosophy of like, you know, it part is like, hey, we really want to make, you know, in connection with our kids. Like one of us has to be a connection parent, one or preferably both of us. And I think where our hope is that like maybe going into it, that both of us would be the catcher pair. But in the end, as our first kid came, it was really like, you know, my partner, you know, she quit her job and she's like, do you want I'm going to do this thing at home?

And meanwhile, it's like, okay, now we're single income and it's all on me. And now I'm like, kind of like, you know, showing up at home at six or seven o 'clock at night. Cause I still have like a job and it's like, how much have I really like connecting with my, my daughter, you know, now there were opportunities. My daughter was an awful sleeper in the early days, just like awful. So I was up at four in the morning with her.

And then I would like literally four in the morning, I'd wait until five 30, where there's like one coffee shop in the cast road open up. We'd go over there and get like a donut and a coffee, you know? And then we were at a playground until like eight. And then like my partner would wake up after she had an awful night's sleep. She'd take over and I'd go to work, you know? And that was like, that was like kind of like my mental state was that I was like, you know, working full time job, but then also, you know, putting in like four hours of childcare kind of before the day even started.

And that was, it was really, really tough. So I did get like some connection there, but it was like, it wasn't like even close to like a 50 50 kind of thing, you know, and we don't have like family or like other caregivers, which you talk about my second child. And that was like quite a bit different, but it was just like really all on my partner. And in a lot of ways that was like isolating. And then it was like also just really, really demanding, especially when, you know, our daughter was like not a great sleeper and was very like, even from a young age, very opinionated to the point where it's like.

Michael Williams (10:03.598)
You know, yeah, it's it's not easy. You know, it definitely wasn't easy in those early days. What was it like experiencing that? And then perhaps, you know, you compare it to you go in with expectations of just what the pictures of what it might look like. And then you're getting up at 4 a or 5 a and, you know, just doing the working parents stuff. And it's hard.

What was that like for you as a dad and as a husband? So I'd say like that first year, it felt like I was failing at everything. Yeah, I think I did fail at everything. Right. It wasn't like a feeling. It was like an act. Like I viewed it as like an actuality. Right. Like I failed at my job. Right. So I was exhausted and like I had this like cesspool of a team I was like trying to manage and they were just like and it was requiring like a lot more attention than I was able to give. Like unfortunately for

everyone involved. But then, like, I wasn't sleeping because I was getting up at four in the morning with my daughter. And that was like, you know, levels of continued sleep deprivation that I've never experienced. You know, I'd never experienced anything close to that where you're like nine months in and you're just like, if you have four hours a night, like, that's great. But sometimes it's less. And then, you know, of course, like my partner was really stressed. So I felt like I was failing as a partner and felt like I was failing my daughter because I was going to like spend enough time with her. And I was definitely failing my job.

It was just like it was kind of getting smacked in the face. Like you go from pre pregnancy being like, hey, fuck, you can do no wrong and really like feel like you're like kind of owning the world. And then like, you know, I turn the court page like a year later and you're like, fuck, I suck at everything. And I like, you know, I don't know what to do. How did you keep your head on? Didn't did not. There was no keeping your head on, you know.

we had this, like this trip to Mendocino, which was like six months. My daughter was maybe like six months old and it was just an awful shit show. It was like Mendocino was like three hours away there because my daughter, like, wasn't comfortable with the car. She's like screaming. It took us over nine hours to get there. Right. And like, I forgot a baby carrier and this was like a huge problem. Right. Meanwhile, like.

Michael Williams (12:23.022)
You know, you're like, yeah, I'm taking some time off of work to go and like connect and like go up whatever. And it's like awful. It's like, send me back to my shitty job that I hate because anything is better than like screaming kid and like a partner who's like, you know, just you've drawn their ire because they you left the one thing that could sue that child in that moment. There was no like modulation. There was no like pep talk. There's no getting right. It was just like you had to get through it.

And, and well, we did. And like, you know, like there is like a light at the end of the tunnel, but like in the moment, it just felt like kind of endless and awful. You talk a lot about books as resources that I think we've all experienced to like, okay, I'm going to treat this like a class or whatever. I'm going to go learn, take classes, read. Did you have anybody else like a human or other person or people in your life to help provide you any support?

In terms of community, we have like no community. That was one of the things I partner like, you know, she got really isolated and she actually was really proactive. There was this there was this app. I don't know if it still exists, but it was like really foundational for us. It was called Parenthoods and it was like a location specific parenting app. You know, it was like WhatsApp for parents in San Francisco or your neighborhood in San Francisco. And through that, she got connected to a community that would would end up being kind of like the foundational community.

for the childhood of my youngest. And that took a little while to get to know those people and being gradiated and everything like that. So near the year mark of my daughter, that community really started becoming that resource where my partner could talk about hard stuff, the male partners in those different families, if they had a male partner, were...

were really, you know, well read and supportive and had thoughts and stuff like that. So that became like the closest thing I had to like a human to really like, you know, lean into and talk to about. But I'd say like, you know, truthfully, it was mostly my partner and I like working through this stuff together. My partner, you know, was reading her, you know, her face off while I was working, you know, I didn't have as much time to read.

Michael Williams (14:43.406)
And we're kind of like, you know, triangulating and stuff and then like kind of, you know, trying to survive every day. But yeah, it was, you know, ultimately it was like, you know, especially in the very early, like the first like nine months, there was like no one. It was just us. We were alone. So as you look on back on your childhood, did you was there anything that you brought forward from whether it was your childhood experience observing your parents or looking back on your parents?

Was there anything you brought forward or discarded as you are going through this, you know, this wringer of a year or more, you know, and as well as, as you move forward beyond that. The thing that I brought forward that was really, really important. And, and I am like the, the, whatever the standard bearer for this is tradition. So like my mom was like super altering to Christmas, like the most glorious, like Christmas set up and like really big in the holidays. And I ended up adopting like

you know, not just those holidays, but also like the Muslim holidays. Because obviously my partner is, you know, Arab Egyptian. And so we were like, so I basically like, you know, we're like kind of instituted. We were like, you know, as couples, you know, we were kind of like, you know, it was it was lip service to like kind of do Christmas. We have like this small tiny tree or something. But then like we had a kid was just like, it became really important for me to like bring that in, because that was like such a grounding. It's like a way to provide.

This idea of like seasonality to kids, I think is really important. These like markers through the year, this passage of time and the holidays, I think, do a really great job of that. And so I would say like I brought that forward. That's something that I loved as a child. It's something that's really important to me. It felt like home. So there was that. I think like also like this sense of home is probably something I bring, bring to the family and brought for my my my parents kind of broadly.

It's just like this idea of like having like a well -kept, well -organized home that feels like home, you know. It's not like everything needs to have, you know, be in its place at all times, but everything needs to have a place, you know. And that creates this kind of like grounding place of the home, which I found, you know, again, very, very important. So like that stuff I definitely took forward from my parents. Something I like discarded is that like, I think, you know, every.

Michael Williams (17:04.013)
You know, I don't know, like every offspring is like trying to kind of wage the battles there on their parents, kind of or kind of make different decisions. And my dad was like, you know, he was a business owner, but he's effectively traveling salesman, you know. So he's gone a lot, you know, both during the day, but then, you know, weekends and all this kind of stuff like he just wasn't that big of a part of my life growing up.

until maybe I got like, you know, a little bit more in teenage years. I would sometimes go with him on these like sales trips and stuff like that. But like it was, you know, he was he was just gone, you know. And my mom, you know, was pretty much always there. You know, she was your stay at home parent. And then she was a stay at home worker because my dad was operating her business out of her home. And she was like kind of back office for that. So she was always there. You know, I get home from school at three and like she was there, you know.

But I think like that idea of like, you know, and me as a parent, like, hey, like there are some like if I have my principal stack rank or whatever, what's most important, like pretty high up there is like being around. You know, if I can't always like be there, like I at least have to be like around, you know. And I was thinking my dad was like, was it around? You know, and I think that that's maybe like one of the. You know, I kind of go back and forth. I'm actually really hungry to get back into office at this point.

Like, you know, after like COVID and all that shit, like I actually really want to go into an office. I really want an office job. It's like crazy. But that being home due to COVID and all that stuff and really working from home was like, I think really, really important for building a relationship with my my, you know, my oldest, but then also my youngest who I've basically been working from home since she was born. So how how did things change when your second came along then?

You know, that's a few years. You're a few years into your first. You've you've got a few reps under you. But now, you know, whatever the amount of work triples or what, you know, whatever it is when the second the second comes around. So how did how did this all change once you maybe had found your footing a little bit? Yeah. Just like time with the footing piece, like like it took about four years. Right. Like until we had space for a second kid.

Michael Williams (19:12.91)
So like we were not ready at year two. We were not ready year three. It was year four. And that year was kind of a watershed thing. It was like, I mean, my partner are going on date nights. Like we're getting the kid to bed at seven. We're being able to hang out and talk to each other for two hours. Like these are the things that were like, did not exist in the preceding, you know, three years or whatever. And so like at that point, like, you know, we really were kind of debating, like, do we want to have a second second kid? And I think like we had.

always thought we would have multiple children. And at that point, we kind of like, you know, there's like a soul searching thing. You know, my partner went on this like, you know, week long, like trip to the woods where she was just like kind of like meditating and writing and stuff. And at that point, we can't we decide like, hey, like, we're ready and this is time. And.

and we'd also, you know, at that point we kind of repaired our relationship. You know, we had a lot of damage for relationship or those like three years, like things are so hard and we like, there's so much disappointment. But it like, like fast forwarding to like, you know, having the second kid, it's like, you know, what changed or like, what was that like? It's like, it's so hard for me to tease out the second kid from COVID. Yeah, it was like the whole thing just got like, yeah, a little more complex than the second kid.

But now we're dealing with COVID as well. So now my daughter, my oldest is like doesn't have schools and option. There was just so much dynamism there. Particularly in California is like we were in the midst of like this, this like kind of four years of like really bad wildfires. It was kind of like we're getting hit by all angles where it's like, okay, we have like, we're, we don't live close to home. We're in California, like we're in COVID, we're locked down into our thousand square foot home.

You know, and now there's fires and this thousand square foot home that was built in 1940 does not have like sealy windows or whatever. So it's like, you know, it's like you're living in a campfire, you know, and, and you have this tiny, tiny baby. so all that was like, you know, I would say definitely added, you know, challenge and complexity. but in that moment, in those first couple of years, it's like, there's so much going on that was adding complexity.

Michael Williams (21:21.166)
That's like hard to tease out, like how much was the second kid versus like how much was just like, you know, the world was kind of dangerous and fucked up. So there's that. I mean, I'd say like now that we're kind of out of those things like wildfires haven't happened for the last couple of years, which is great. Our house is actually like newer as like totally rebuilt. So there's like, you know, when there is a fire, there's like no smoke inside. You know, it is like.

There are like a lot of challenges, but like ultimately like our daughters have built like, and this might be part of part of the benefit of COVID. Our daughters actually built like a really good relationship and they play really well together. So and like my daughter, my oldest daughter is like she's someone that like, hey, she needs someone to play with always, always needs someone to play with. So like when it was just her, it was me or Sarah, like had to be playing with her all the time. And now we're starting to kind of unlock that benefit where it's like, like she refers to her the youngest as like

as her playmate. She's like, where's my playmate? You know, we're like, yeah, go play. When you look back on all these challenges and even as you're talking right now, I'm always curious about this. Do you think like, do you remember how bad it was? Because sometimes as a co it sounds like you probably do, but I talked to some parents and it's like you kind of forget.

how challenging certain periods can be, maybe as a biological evolutionary thing of like to get you to have more kids, you just forget how, you know, but do you like, have you noticed that at all with yourself? No, no. I like deep, deep scar tissue here, like on all fronts. I mean, like, you know, the pregnancy part is not easy. At least it wasn't easy for us, you know.

The early years, our youngest was easier than our eldest, but not easy. I think people do have different setups and stuff. I look back on it and I think about what would have made parenting, having kids easier. And it's two things. One, either leaving close to family or two, being very financially set to the point where you can invest a lot in additional care.

Michael Williams (23:36.878)
One way or another, you need a break when you're a parent and either that's coming from family or that's coming because you're you're paying in our pocket. And like given our like lifestyle in California and like the fact we don't live close to people, we didn't have that stuff. I think that built some really like deep star tissue for me, at least where, you know, I had like we we had, you know, four people's worth of work, but only two people. And that was impossible. And so, like, yeah, like I remember it like really indelibly. Well.

I remember the pain really undoubtedly. I'll like joke that like, I don't remember my first like birthday. Like I strip like have no, like we had a party, we had like people there. I do not remember it. And that's like one of the problems with like sleep deprivation is you don't have the ability to form long -term memories. Like I'm missing long -term memories, but I still have like the embodied like pain of that. Like I remember the pain. I don't necessarily remember like what happened. One of the interesting ways I've thought about this

It's kind of asking the same question of what I do it the same way or what I do it differently is to ask the question for your kids. How you hope that your kids raise their kids and would you want it to be the same or different than what you and Sara went through? No, I mean, I basically tell my kids, I'm like, look, if you're going to have kids, you're going to have them buy us or we're going to move to where you are. You know, or.

Like if you have a if you have a million bucks sitting in the bank, that's just like burn a hole in your bank account. Sure. Go ahead. Have kids where the fuck you want. Like you'll be able to figure it out. But like unless you got one of those two things, my advice is like no kids, no kids. Like either like pull up stakes and get close to some family that is like and like I've heard this too, like where sometimes like people do this conversation with their parents or like, hey, like we'll move by you and like you'll take care of the kids. They're like, yeah, let's do it. And then like they show up or like they there are the grandparents moving. The grandparents like are not there.

Like they're like, yeah, like we thought this through and I guess we don't really want to do this. It's just like, bro, you know, if you're like, hey, I'm thinking about having kids like you got to get like one set of grandparents like sign up and like go to war with you. Or you just got to have like a shitload of money in the bank and you're OK like having depressed earnings for like 10 years or whatever. You know, that would be my advice to the kids. I mean, like we have you know those things. So, you know, ill advised. That would be like, you know, if they were getting that age and have that.

Michael Williams (26:00.686)
That'd be like my talk. That'd be like my equivalent of sex talk is like the kid talk. Be like, look, you need to lock down these two things or else like do not have kids.

Michael Williams (26:11.822)
What did you find most effective for maintaining your relationship with your partner as best you could through this, you know, through this venture? Because with all of the different challenges that you rattled off, how are you still married? Yeah. You know, I only it's like 50 percent of joke, but 50 percent like, yeah. How did you think you talk about that all the time? And we are our youngest.

or oldest, sorry, we were in this parenting group and, you know, there's like what 10 families in there, like half of them are divorced now. And there's like another couple that are on the rocks. It's like, and it's real. Right. And and so, you know, I think that like there is, you know, I think that. All right. Me and my partner have like the utmost respect for each other. I think that's like the first thing. And I think that that's like kind of a necessary condition is like.

you know, if you don't respect the other person in some way, like things are going to come out and that marriage is done, you know, and it will come out when you're having kids. Like if you don't respect your partner, like it will come out and it will end the marriage. Right. So I think like, you know, even when things are really, really bad, I think like neither like me or a partner were willing to like really go there. We weren't willing to like, you know, really like take the pot shots or really like, you know, try and hurt the person. Right. Because we had so much mutual respect.

It's like not, you know, maintain your relationship. It's more like, you know, can you make it through the hard parts without blowing up your relationship? You know, and then it's like once you get out of the fire, then it's like you have to rebuild. And like there's been many parts, many times in our relationships that we had kids or like we got to look at each other. We're like, our well is empty. Right. We have not connected as partners. We do not feel like we're a married couple. We feel like we're in some sort of like weird child care transactional thing going on. And like, that's not cool.

And then we have to refill the well, you know, and and, you know, and I think like sometimes like, you know, we're able to refill the well and it's refilled for like a month. You know, we have grandparents coming out to California for a month. You know, we're really hoping like refill some of that well. I would say it's like it's as drained as it has been in the past, but it's like, you know, hey, we definitely want to top that up, you know, and then that's kind of like, you know, I think like making sure you carry on this project. We went to like this amazing resort in Big Sur last year.

Michael Williams (28:37.454)
And like we were at like a pretty low point and like the two days just in somewhere beautiful where there was like amazing food and amazing hikes and stuff like that. Like that like really did a lot, you know. And so it's I think like insofar as you can carve those things out, we have like really tiny kids and mom can't leave them or whatever. You know, you got to kind of just like make sure that like in those years and periods where you can't top up the well or fill the well up, that you're not blowing it up, you know, because that's I think that's like where people

have mostly like end up in divorce land is that one of them or both of them have like gone there, blown up the well. And then it's just like, okay, how are we going to, you know, how are we going to make this work when we're, you know, not married? So I have, I'm not sure what the question is, and maybe you guys can help me form this question. One of the things you just said that struck me is that 50 % of the people in that parenting group are divorced or about to be divorced. It's 50 % are divorced.

Over 50, like it'll be over 50 % of any of these other come through. Yeah. What I'm, what the question I have in my mind is how much of that is tied to your geography and to tie this back to your career. If you and Sarah had different careers, would you have made different decisions around your geography? And then there's a second part or which I haven't, I don't know how it fits, but do you think geography and the pressures

the financial pressures, the work pressures, the cultural, the fact that almost everybody there is a first generation like their family is elsewhere. Do you think the geography plays into that rate of parents really struggling? So, yeah, I mean, I think like, like just like, you know, lowly and more conceptual or abstract level, I think ultimately like raising humans is really hard and you can't do it alone. Right. Like it was never meant to be attempted.

in a solo environment. So I think the people who are in California or wherever who are, you know, are kind of making it work and their marriages are intact and everything, they're people who have figured out community, right? Whether it's their family or whether it's like friends, you know, and if they figure that out, like it doesn't matter kind of where you're at. Like I think your success rates are going to be a lot higher. But yeah, I think that like, you know, a place like California where there are more transient people, I mean, a lot of those families that are now divorced,

Michael Williams (30:59.598)
They're not in California anymore. You know, they're in Denver, they're in Maryland or whatever. Right. But they, you know, but wherever they went to or, you know, or whatever happened while they were in California, I kind of doomed that relationship. And I think that's that's mostly down to like, yeah, like attempting to, you know, scale El Capitan without like any ropes or anything is like a dumb fucking idea. And like, you know, going to some far flung place, not any family, without any community or whatever, and having kids.

is a dumb fucking idea. Did you have any or have you developed any support for yourself? You've mentioned a little bit the parenting group and building community, which the sense I get is kind of for the family. What about you as an individual? So, I mean, this is like, you know, you got like all the balls in the air.

And it's like you got like in order to have a balanced life, you got to kind of keep them all kind of up there. Like I have not done that. Like, you know, it's basically like I am, you know, I am I think like my kids and like I think on the parenting side, like I'd say like I'm the balls in the air. Like I'm like a pretty good parent. I'm there for my kids when they need me. Like I'm not the parent primary parent, but I'm like pretty good. I'm keeping that ball up. The work ball is like mostly up.

I'm not nearly as good as I was when I didn't have kids, but I'm getting a lot better now that like my kids are older and like, but I'm keeping that up in the air and I'm continuing to like, you know, to be productive there. And then like, you know, partner side, it's like it's a little bit spotty. Like when we call for resourcing, like the partner side is good. I have like no friends like honestly, like my whole like my like that side of my like in my family to like like my connection with like my broader family. Like those two balls are like totally dropped at this point. It's like I have like this figma doc.

where I'm like, yeah, what people do I fucking know in this world right now? Because like it's like gotten to that point where it's like, yeah, I'm like working and then doing all the parenting shit and like, and then, you know, keeping up with my partner that like I haven't invested in that stuff. And now it's like, OK, there's there's like some like opening like how do I like re -engage those relationships or slash build new relationships and start like kind of becoming more of like a whole human. Like my partner and I kind of talk about this like

Michael Williams (33:22.446)
being like a whole human and neither of us feel like we're whole humans right now. But like, how do we kind of get back to the point where we do feel like we're like a balanced whole human where we're like, you know, living like kind of our best selves, not just like, you know, a, you know, just a couple of dimensions, which are really important dimensions, but like are not, you know, it's not everything in life, you know? Talking about the career ball for a second. How has that?

Your relationship to that changed from having kids and from watching kids grow. You know, you're early on, it's intense, it's going well, you're getting promoted. Where is, you know, how did it change? I'm pretty good bullshitter, right? I'm able to like take it. Like, and this is probably the reason why I'm like good in startups is I'm able to take like kind of a limited amount of data and like make pretty good decisions. So I'm able to like be effective in a pre -time constrained environment.

because like I have that, that skill and ability. Now you take that skill and ability and you back it up with a shitload of time. And like the level of detail and quality of the work output becomes like, I think quite incredible, right? Like I was at the point where I was able to basically read my CEO's mind, right? Like it's kind of like, you know, like a dog can like tell whether like you're going out the door or not, just by you like.

doing one little thing. That's why I was with my CEO. I was anticipating him. I was on it. And before he asked for something, it was already done. And when I had kids, I was still able to anticipate things. I was still able to do quality work. But it was just not as deep as it would have been had I had unlimited amount of time, basically. And that was the main thing. And I woke up one day a couple of months into having my second kid. And I started my CEO.

I said something, it was like totally off base. Like he didn't agree with it at all. And it was actually probably a really I don't remember exactly what it was. It was probably a really stupid thing to say. And I just realized that moment like, fuck, like I'm not like connected to him the way that I was. And that's probably bad for me. Did you find that you were still your career was still aligned with you as a whole person?

Michael Williams (35:40.366)
You know, like I didn't have any epiphanies at that stage, right? Like it was kind of like it was almost like, you know, I guess like me, my relationship changed from like less of an ambition point and more of a like, I need to keep the money rolling in because like I have a family now. Right. It became like, you know, maybe less like high order, like, hey, we're going to like redefine how like engineers find their next 500k year job or whatever. I was like motivated at and taking the job.

But like, but it was, it was more like, you know, hey, like I'm actually got to like be successful here because I have to provide for my family. And I think that that's like definitely like a different motivation, you know, and like now you're trying to like survive and like, you know, and be there rather than like rather than being like, hey, like I'm trying to like solve the mission of this company, you know. When you when you take a step back, do you I think a lot of people of our generation

deal with this question of like, what's my impact on the world? What's the, what's the meaning of things I do? Do you feel like your answer? So a big part of it is usually career, right? Or my job. But do you feel like your, your, your like top level answer for that question has changed? Like what is the impact you want to have? Yeah. I like it's definitely something I'm grappling with. Right.

Because I'm actually like, you know, like when I was we were in Madison in 2012 and like I had this kind of epiphany of my like life's work is basically around finding people meaningful work they love. Right. And that was like and I still think about that as my personal mission. And I think like I will be able to get back to affecting that in like a material way at some point. But there is like there are these moments where like as I like kind of stared down, like, you know, kind of like a lot of failure in the last 10 years since having kids. Right.

of being like, hey, is like is my my real purpose in life to make sure that my daughters are able to live their dreams? And I kind of feel like that's a cop out. And I think both my partner and I kind of like, you know, kind of default there. Like we feel really down. We want to give up. It's kind of like, I guess we'll just like make sure kids can like live their dreams instead. And I do feel like that is a cop. I think like parents need to like and I think you should be realistic. Like when you're having kids like.

Michael Williams (38:00.686)
You know, maybe maybe you should review. Look at that a little bit more as like a career pause. Right. Because like and set your expectations a little bit lower as to like what you're actually going to do or or if you don't, you probably will end up missing kind of like the period of your kids lives where they actually want to be with you. You know, so it's like you're still like, yeah, you're still cool and they want to be with you and you're and you're like really like impacting them like, you know, you're there. And then all of a sudden they're like in like primary school or whatever, and they're not around anymore.

or as much. And, you know, and now it's like, you got all this time. What are you going to do with it? Right. It's not going to be like, you know, trying to live your kids dreams for them or whatever. It's going to be like reconnecting with your own dreams. You know, I feel like my partner and I, like I tried to start a company last year. It was a total like like bad idea. But it's just kind of like, I think it could have been better. It could have been better.

Yeah, for sure. You know, but it was like one of those things like I was so itchy for it. I had a really good idea I really believed in. And but it was like, you know, yeah, time was bad from a markets perspective. But like also it's kind of bad from a family perspective. Like my youngest is not in primary school yet, you know, and like that could have been, you know, more thought out. But I think like now my partner is kind of the same boat where she's itchy. You know, we're fucking itchy to like get back to our work, you know. But like.

We also still got, you know, probably a couple more years before, like, our youngest is like, sad and we have like full time childcare, basically, you know. Have you thought about the impact of your career as setting us setting an example or a standard for your kids? Has that question come up? I don't I don't know. I kind of feel like kids don't give a shit what their parents do. Like, honestly, like.

I mean, I think there is some aspect like I had an identity as like an entrepreneur because my dad was an entrepreneur and, you know, my grandpa was, you know, so it was like, you know, I think there is there is so identity pieces there, but like the nuts and bolts of my my my parents did or whatever. I don't think was like I was super connected to that. So I think like to a certain extent, like I think, you know, if you're talking a big game and you have a lot of family values around, like, you know, how you're showing up in the world.

Michael Williams (40:18.222)
And you're not living those, like either in your career or just in your daily consumption habits or whatever. The kids are going to call that out. Right. Like, I mean, we talk a lot about the environment here and I try to buy polyester to redo a chair and polyester velvet redo a chair and I can't do it. The daughter's just like, no, that's like that's plastic. I'm like, OK. All right.

You know, and so it's like, you know, like, let's bury the chairs and yes, you know, that they're constantly like looking for like this hypocrisy where it's like, you got these values. Well, let's see how much those values really stick when it hits the road. And you're like, OK, well, we didn't buy the pie answer. Velvet chair, you know. So like I think that and then like, you know, as kids, like, you know, find out what you do for a living, like if, you know, if there's inconsistencies there, they're going to point that out. That's like where like the rubber hits the road, you know.

And yeah, you know, you think like ultimately like you want to be doing work that even if the kids don't get it or care that you feel like is going to be like a net benefit to the world because like ultimately they're going to be owning and living in it. And and yeah. One of the things that you've touched on that I'd like to dig into a little further is the idea.

almost like the long -term seasonality when you have kids and should you put your career on pause or on try to shred water a little bit more? Does one person do that? The other partner doesn't. Do you think that just broadly speaking, working in the talent world, do you think people have the wrong expectations when they enter early parenting early on and

What do you see other people doing in the, you know, in your world of of seeing a lot of, you know, the talent marketplace? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, everyone's a little bit different. Everyone has different kids. I mean, we do have families who are like super easy kids and like, you know, and they've made certain choices. They are they sleep trade a super early age. They've got like a nanny. They're both working jobs. They're not as connected. But I think they're being like, you know, I think the biggest thing is like you have to.

Michael Williams (42:36.494)
You have to make that decision. Right. I think where people actually go wrong is they don't make that decision. They're not honest with themselves. I was I was at a talk with a CEO of a startup. You know, it's a hard market. And he decided to show up to this talk instead of going to his kids baseball game. And his reasoning was that I committed to this talk before I realized there was this baseball game.

And the thing that he like talked about was like, like, look, like, like, he knows that I love him. And I have to set the right expectations that he's like really important in my life, but that there are like that I'm counted on by a lot of people outside of work. And and sometimes, like, even though I want to be there, like I can't be there. Right. And I don't know if that's the right call. I don't think it's a call for everyone. I don't think like I would take that tact. Right. I clearly haven't. But he's honest about it.

Right. And he's setting expectations internally in the house, which I think like is like 90 percent of the harm is like a parent who's saying they're going to be there and they're not there. Right. And so I think that like, you know, however you want to make that decision, like you should make it like eyes wide open, know that you're making this decision and know that you're going to be giving up some like really special moments of your kids lives, you know, knowing that you might not be their primary caregiver. Right. There might be someone else in their lives that is their primary caregiver.

And like just really being like a pinion, like, hey, like I've my I believe so much of my work, what I'm doing, what I need to do, that really sacrifice those things. I want to be transparent, honest about it with my family and and wherever possible. I'm trying to exceed those expectations. But like, you know, you have to be honest about it. I felt like that. I don't like that's why I really took off from that that you see your time just like, you know, how honest am I being with my family?

about like what I need to be doing and like how that's going to impact their lives and my presence or not, you know? And I think it's like, I think, you know, at least in my space, at least in like the tech world and you know, we're, you know, whatever, I think that that's where like a lot of people actually go wrong is that they're, they're trying to be the good guy. Like, no, I'll be there. I can balance it all. I can do it all. And it's like, no, like you haven't enumerated to the people in your life, like what your priority stack is and been honest about it. And, and yeah, it creates a lot of, yeah, you know, lack of resonance and

Michael Williams (44:55.31)
just to, I couldn't agree more with you and, you know, just for the audience, you know, that this exact situation, you know, I was a co -founder CEO of a tech company that raised a whole bunch of money and I ended up on the other side of that decision. Like I, I stepped out of my role and transitioned because I did find myself setting expectations that I wasn't able to live up to. I did.

I lived with it for a couple of years and I finally decided that my integrity, you know, it was kind of like, can I pass up this part of my kid's life and not live the, you know, who I want to be? And for me, the litmus test was the kind of classic, if I'm looking back on my life from my death bed, how am I going to do myself and what I say versus what I do? And so that's just to, I think your point there is,

I would use the word integrity. Like they like your, your own integrity. And are you being honest? yeah, I totally agree. This is, this is, these are really hard questions. Yeah. Yeah. They're really hard questions, but it's like worth asking them and like actually thinking through your response, then trying to fall into something or like you said, like degrade your integrity because you're just not living up to expectations either at work or at home, you know, totally.

to that end, Trent, what does your what does a week need to look like for you to feel balanced? You know, where have you started to land on on what feels right? Yeah, it's a good I'd say this is like this is definitely a work in progress, right? But like I signed up for a gym this week, right, which is like a big deal.

Like I am blind to a gym in a long time. I do a lot of bike riding. I'm dropped the kids off via biking or whatever, but I don't do like, yeah, I'm in blonde, like a jam or carve that kind of personal time out for me. You know, basically biking is like commute time. yeah. And that's how I'm straight by on the health front. You know, it's converting my commute time into exercise. But but yeah, like, you know, trying to basically set up weekly things with other people like, you know, there's a couple of days in the week now where there's a possibility for me to go out.

Michael Williams (47:15.662)
and and like hang out with, you know, go and get beers or watch a game or whatever. So like trying like so kind of slowly building those things in. But yeah, it's like, you know, there's just like a little bit of space. I'm still studying most of my time working most of my time, you know, committing the kids up to school, you know, you know, and, you know, now my partner and I are spending a couple hours every night, you know, hanging out, which is new.

So it is feeling like a bit more, you know, balanced, but it's definitely a work in progress, you know. You know, one thing like, you know, and I think that like both my partner and I kind of fall back on this is like we we kind of default to what the kids want to do a lot. And I'm just like, I think that that's fucked up. I think like I think like you should do what the kids want sometimes. Right. But you should do what you want. It's like I took my my youngest took a nap, which means she's going to be like up until like whatever midnight.

And so instead of just like hanging out with her, you know, at home, like whatever, I took her to like the Michigan, you know, NCAA like game at this like awesome pizza place called, you know, Seller Maker in San Francisco here. And that was an awesome night. I mean, my daughter was like hanging out, watching the Michigan game, eating pizza, you know, and and that like turned something that would have been like maybe like a little bit, you know, plenty of their kids isn't always drudgery, but like there is like things that like adults like and there's things that kids like. Right. And.

And so being able to inject some of that stuff that I like into my relationship with my kids makes everything a lot more gratifying. And I think trying to work that in where it's like, we've been a little bit too much doing whatever the kids say. Well, it's like, let's bring ourself into this whatever family and do some of the stuff that we want to do. And the kids come along with us and they enjoy it, too. My daughter had a great time. Do you like where things are at right now?

Are you unsatisfied but moving toward satisfaction in terms of of your how you're allocating your energy, how you're able to allocate your attention? It's for yourself. I think it's getting closer. You know, I think part of the stuff is the work stuff. I think like if there was, you know, if we had a different what's the what's the term?

Michael Williams (49:39.598)
operating structure or family, there'd be different types of work open to me that maybe like, you know, might be more, you know, more engaging or more personally satisfying or something. So, you know, like some of those things could change. Obviously, like I tried to found a company like, you know, that was great and it was awful. And, you know, and, you know, those kinds of things are exciting for me. And I think that, you know, if we change that, we had a different operating structure, you know, where we didn't have as much, you know,

expensive shit in San Francisco, some of those choices might be different. But I feel like, or I'm hopeful, next year, youngest is moving into more full -time care. So it's like, what does our life look like then? I hope it's better than it's looked like last year, and this year's been okay. And so I'm a perpetual optimist, and I'm always looking to the future, and that's kind of what gets me through the hard times. It's like, I know that the hard times don't last forever.

You mentioned not blowing up the relationship and I'm curious if there's, as you look back, look back and also look forward. It sounds like you're...

coming to, you know, over the crest of the wave, you can, you at least have in your vision a smoother path ahead. It would seem, you know, it would seem. As you look around, what other things would you advise people not to do? Or like what type of, you know, could you talk about some of the mistakes you've made along the way as learning lessons for us? I mean, we talked about some of the big ones, the foundational.

You know, like, hey, make sure you got your support structure like set up. Make sure you thought through that. Right. Like that's I kind of feel like it all kind of flows down from there. I think the other thing and, you know, this is kind of going way back, but like it's just like sleep and like, I think understanding your capacity as sleep when you when you are under slept, like, you know, both will work, but also like your fuses are shorter. Like, how do you like?

Michael Williams (51:47.694)
you know, walk away when you're under slept and in like an argument versus like engaging on it, because it's almost always better to walk away. So I'm just saying like how your your psychology changes when you're like drastically under slept, if that is your experience as a parent, I think is is an important thing. I think like this one thing that I think is always in short supply in relationships, probably all relationships are really cute is grace, which like there's a lot of ways to like frame that, but it's kind of like

Like just giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. Like I fuck up shit all the time. Right. It's exhausting how much I fuck up shit. I get a lot of stuff right though. Right. And like all the time trying to get things right. It's don't always kind of work out. And like understanding that like, hey, you know, this is this like there is care and effort here and it doesn't always go right. But understanding like, you know, kind of the insurmountable things being asked the other person.

to give them kind of the benefit of the doubt when things don't kind of go the way you expect. I think it's really important. There's something like so like loving about grace, about like someone like doing something that's disappointing and then like your reaction is like, that's okay. Like, you know, like, or, you know, something like that where like, you know, you're expecting to like be faced with anger at what you're doing. Is there your face with like kind of acceptance? Like, I think like, you know, anytime, like, I think like that carries actually like a lot of like,

benefit. It's a huge, it's a momentous thing that actually like kind of fills up the other person quite a bit and will actually carry you through all the times where that doesn't happen. Because like invariably there's going to be stuff that you just like, you know, are really disappointed about and you talk to your partner about it or whatever. And it's it's hard, you know, but you want to make sure those opportunities for grace, you take them. Yeah. And like, seriously, I give myself like one of the things I've learned is give myself a lot of grace.

Because I'm just like, I only had to bring like 1500 items on this trip, you know, three hours away. Like I missed one of the 1500 items. You know, it's like literally like we have like one tiny baby and two adults and got this like pretty big SUV. And it is packed to the brim where you can't see out the back window. And it's like, dude, I brought most of the things. And the funny thing was, is I didn't bring the right carrier, but I was smart enough to have a backup. It wasn't the best one.

Michael Williams (54:11.15)
But I was able to produce a backup, which didn't totally alleviate the eye hair, but like kind of like ended the build up, you know? So I'm like, look, yeah, it's a shitty carrier, but it's a carrier. Boom. Try to add one. She's like, it's made out of duct tape, dude. You know, it was an old model. It was an old model. It was a hand -me -down. You know, it was the backup.

You know, I do feel like I do feel like there are these moments when things come into focus and packing the car for a trip is one of those moments. packing the car, packing suitcases for sure. And we got this like massive checklist of shit, you know, and it's like we go through it like, you know, we're yeah, we're like pilots on the plane or whatever. It's like, you know, did you get the baby monitor? Did you get the diapers? You get the wipes. You get the like hand sanitizer, like many hand sanitizers. You know, it's like, yeah, you've, you know.

It's something that something that we've done is we have a shared Apple note that is standard packing lists. Yeah. And only one person is responsible for for a category. Yes. So Mallory does the overnight sleeping items. Mike does the food and pack in, pack out, you know.

the whole from door to door, that person is responsible for that. And talking about the grace item, something I heard was, you know, catch the person doing things right. And I have tried to do that where once a day or, you know, as often as possible, just, hey, I saw you did such and such, you know.

thank you, or that was done, that was really well. And it's so easy to only focus on the one thing when they're the 99 other things, the right, yeah. And you only give energy to where it was falling short and trying to put just as much effort into highlighting the right. Yeah, I kind of agree with that more, man.

Michael Williams (56:29.966)
The more you can focus on that, I think it's taken a while. I think we have to do a lot of that now. It definitely does smooth out the bumps. Well, this has been really good. Do you have any... Honestly, I didn't even remember how much it's... Rehearing what you've been through puts it all into a new focus of just...

the not only the amount of challenge, but the length of the challenge and the, you know, the wildfire stuff being almost like a dark comedy to add that on to your experience. But one of the things I'm that at least for the rest of us is a massive benefit is getting to hear you talk about it, what you've learned. And I'm wondering if I'm wondering what you would tell someone who's thinking about becoming a dad.

or is early in their journey and is, you know, is ready to to soak something up from you. Yeah. It's it's like one of these things where it's kind of like wasted breath. That means it's my my parting wisdom, right? Is like, look, like you're going to like people are going to give you unsolicited advice. You're going to ask for advice and you're going to think that doesn't apply to me. And the thing is, is that like you don't even understand the advice.

You know, it's kind of like a like, you know, like sixth or seventh dimensional space or wherever. Like you can represent it mathematically, but like visually, you can't like actually comprehend that. And that's what it's like when you give someone like advice like, hey, like, yeah, it's like you're not going to sleep at all for like three months or five months or nine months or 12 months, 12 months for me. Right. They're like, yeah, whatever. It's not going to that's not going to be my thing. You know, you have no idea. Like you can't even imagine seven dimensional space. And that's kind of my like

My feedback is that there is like a singularity here, right? In your life that like when you get pregnant, you decide to take on that huge responsibility having a child. Like it's gonna change you a lot of ways. And there's no way that anyone's gonna be able to give you a lens into how that's actually gonna be for you. So buckle up.

Michael Williams (58:52.782)
That's great. Well, thank you, Trent. Again, it was shockingly. I honestly had that it's it was it was as a listener, amazing to hear your journey and what you've taken away. You know, as a reminder for for the audience, this is for anyone who is a dad, has been a dad or is considering becoming a dad. Anyone who wants to learn what it's like.

be a dad. Hopefully your train card is maybe a little smoother than Trent's, but maybe it won't be. And finally, anyone who wants to support a dad, which obviously is a topic Trent that you touched on and I think is something that's really worth thinking about as you enter the dad journey. So thank you, Trent, and good luck on the days ahead here. Thanks, and good chatting off.

Thank you to Trent for sharing the challenges and learnings of his fatherhood experience so far. It's not easy to revisit difficult times in your life, especially when the stakes are as high as father and children and staying in love with your partner at the same time. So thanks to Trent for going there. As we've talked more dads, one theme I've noticed is many of us here in America don't have the intergenerational support that perhaps used to exist in

generations past, whether that's due to moving away for school or a job or because the relationship frayed somewhere along the way. Either way, many of us are going it alone. I hope to explore that more as we continue on this journey together, and in the meantime I hope this episode gave you some knowledge and wisdom to carry on yours. Before you bounce, I have a quick favor. Please subscribe to the pod.

Not only does Luke love juicing those numbers, but it really does help put this thing in front of more dads. And Mike, on the other hand, just loves juicing. We also now run a listener community on WhatsApp. To join, visit dadpod .fm and you'll see the delicious link at the top of the homepage. Come on in, baby. We'd love to have you.